Do stunnning renders = lots of extra dollar?

I was wondering how much importance people on here place on high quality renders. They can of course never be a bad thing and obviously help to sell kitchens. I'm just starting out on my AutoKitchen journey and look forward to the day (probably in the very distant future when I'll be too old to care or work!!) when I can hopefully post a render to compare to some of the astoundingly good work on here.

I do have a slight concern looking ahead though. Is there a danger that I might take my eye off the ball with regards to the myriad of other things we all need to do to sell kitchens that have nothing to do with being sat at a PC?

Has anyone ever done a presentation with an amazing design backed up by a stunning graphic presentation, lost the job and then wondered whether it was worth burning all that midnight oil for a handful of images? Or more to the point wondered whether the limited time we all get to devote to each prospective customer might have been better spent in other ways.

I'm in no way being dismissive of any of the work that is produced on here, I'm more concerned about my own limitations. I can tend to get very focussed on certain things at the expense of everything else going on around me. I definitely want to significantly improve my CAD skills but I already know there will be a law of diminshing returns that will apply if I ever get really good and just want to go one stage further.

Or to be more succinct, when is a render good enough?

when is a render good enough?




IMO when it gets the concept across to the client.




If the client is all about the macro detail, then maybe the renders need to show this, but if in general it get the plan clearly laid out and the design concept across, that's the job done.
but then I use my displays and samples a lot to sell, if you dont have a showroom (or a display or a particular product) then the render is probably more important.


There is probably a price point where renders would need to be of a high standard, to stand out from the others clients have seen.

I Agree with Mitch. I think its all about balance and consideration to the target market you work in. i. if you know you are competing with a shed quote, you want to show them something better than their entry-level renders, but still appreciate it is likely a job with a restricted budget so don't waste too much time on it.

We make handmade kitchens and work more towards the high end and we also buy and fit Burbidge and PWS 1909 kitchens. I often get clients coming in with bobby basic (but equally effective) renders from other companies and it gives me the drive to give them back something better, I think the client buy into you as much as their kitchen and its important to go that extra mile. but again, its weighing it up with time constraints. 

Time can be saved hugely when basics settings, textures, favourite units etc are stored in the software program you use so it may well be worth investing some time into getting that sorted and it will pay off in the long run.

be interested to hear everyone elses thoughts on this!

Agree with all the above.  Only thing I would say is that having a PC to render quickly has made my life SO much easier.  Reading your signature it seems you're clued up on all things PC and have a decent spec.  12 threads will certainly help.  To give you a little insight in to the performance differences, Joe sent me a Blender file that took his laptop somewhere close to 2h 30mins I believe.  I ran the same render on my PC (88 threads) and it took 55 mins.

AutoKitchen uses the preset renders quality/speeds set by Autodesk so there isn't much scope for playing.  However the top render setting will still be of a very good quality.  Definitely talk to Chris Airey about anything AutoKitchen.

I agree with the above.

I do spend quite a bit of time designing... then again that one of my main tasks.
Some customers it can be wasted time but often they appreciate the quality after all we only have one go at creating a good first impression.

I am in a slightly different position to most of you as i gave up the rat race of design/selling to setting up my small online service where i provide visuals to small and medium sized showrooms across the Uk. 

Most of my clients use me mainly because they don't have the time or skill or are one man bands who can't afford an extra sales designer to do decent renders. Personally i think a good image can't hurt in getting the sale. Good showroom displays always help but some people can't visualise just how a certain style or door range will actually look in their own home, That's were good visuals come in. 

I use Articad which is quick and does a great job but I'm always looking at ways of improving my visuals and still keep my rates low as there seems to be more and more doing the same as me now. I don't think for one minute that any of my clients could afford the rates say that Charles from Snappy CGI would charge as he targets the CGI market but the quality of his renders is where i want to get to which is why i'm trying to learn Blender. Personally Articad or Autokitchen should be more than enough for most showrooms. Couple of early Blender efforts below still learning...

Once you have your system set up with favourites, props and textures, what takes the time is the physical render not the time you put into the design. You can just let the system chug away while you're doing all the other stuff. What I need to stop doing, is getting lots of different sketchup models because I get bored with them.....The customer has never seen any of them before..Doh!

Ming - that again must come down to market and price point. I put more thought into the design and material pallet etc than I do spend time waiting on renders.

Agree that just using the same set of general props over and over, but I will add some custom touches to each e.g. sofa colour to suit or the pendant style.

I'm learning fast that I will nedd to put a lot of time in up front to be able to produce AK drawings quickly and efficiently. I'm definitely happy with the choice I have made and I'm so impressed with the support.

I have my 1st presentation with AK drawings on Monday and will be spending the rest of the weekend getting my images and render as good as possible

Mingerz wrote:Once you have your system set up with favourites, props and textures, what takes the time is the physical render not the time you put into the design. You can just let the system chug away while you're doing all the other stuff. What I need to stop doing, is getting lots of different sketchup models because I get bored with them.....The customer has never seen any of them before..Doh!

 also super guilty for this!!!

Joe wrote:I am in a slightly different position to most of you as i gave up the rat race of design/selling to setting up my small online service where i provide visuals to small and medium sized showrooms across the Uk. 

Most of my clients use me mainly because they don't have the time or skill or are one man bands who can't afford an extra sales designer to do decent renders. Personally i think a good image can't hurt in getting the sale. Good showroom displays always help but some people can't visualise just how a certain style or door range will actually look in their own home, That's were good visuals come in. 

I use Articad which is quick and does a great job but I'm always looking at ways of improving my visuals and still keep my rates low as there seems to be more and more doing the same as me now. I don't think for one minute that any of my clients could afford the rates say that Charles from Snappy CGI would charge as he targets the CGI market but the quality of his renders is where i want to get to which is why i'm trying to learn Blender. Personally Articad or Autokitchen should be more than enough for most showrooms. Couple of early Blender efforts below still learning...

joe - these are amazing. what led you to pick Blender over VRAY for Sketchup? I remember you saying you were having a play with it a while ago?

Biggest issue I had with sketchup was the program crawls with large files! Also I couldn't get renders looking any better than articad. Blender once you get over the first couple of weeks learning the basics is so much fun. I know Charles models everything in blender but you can use other software to model then bring into Blender just like sketchup to articad without the issue of large models sizes causing your system to grind to a halt.

Thanks for letting me know. The Blender renders really are fantastic, everything just "pops" more and has more dimension and depth. I'll take a look at this over xmas break I think!

Ah joe you should use www.imeshh.com for props and textures, they're bringing out over 50 1k 2k 5k seamless wood textures which maps can be used in articad or blender.

Rest of my comment didnt seem to load after my laughing emoji ^^

Basically was saying importing into Blender ArtiCAD models is the best way to keep turnaround times down as can take me 10h hours to model one set and props.

Will Do! 

Yea doing that to get started with the units and creating the room and worktops in rhino, want to learn nodes and lighting first then will try and get my head around modelling as its a bit diff from what i'm used to. Early days!! 

OpenXeducation 3d design course could help I'm such a dirty link dropper I should stop...

I'll be launching imeshh videos on YouTube soon too specific for Archvis which will involve modelling of a kitchen set

Hi

I have read these posts with interest

The quality of the presentation certainly helps sell the product and once its all dressed up etc it can make the difference between a maybe and a sale depending on the customer

However !! and its a BIG however ...

Having said that we do 95% of our designs whilst sitting in front of the customer face to face

We have been using articad for 20+ years and can do a plan literally in say 15-20 mins or sometimes less.
We always do it on HD preview as this gives the best balance between low rent renders from the likes of Wickes/B&Q etc
and the better renders.

If we get a more picky customer who wants all the bells and whistles then I will spend a few hours getting it looking like a photo to try and wow them. Do I pretend I can get anywhere like some of the visuals seen on here no I don't. I simply don't have the time but its very  close.

This is the issue ! Is it that time spent doing the WOW visuals actually time spent well ?

We have done a full in depth breakdown of what we do and have found some suprising conclusions

The customer who we spend loads of hours doing fantastic visuals seems to be the one who buys the least.
We have found this type of client expects this to be done and isn't really overly impressed with all our extra hard work on their behalf. They simply don't know the difference that it takes time wise to get to that level of detail.

The customer who actually sits with us whilst we are designing it and only doing it in HD preview engages with us a lot more. They actually like the fact that its getting done right before their eyes and they can chop and change it quickly.

To put this in perspective

our average sale is 15-20K whilst doing a face to face design

the customers who we do the better visuals for are 20K plus and on average 30-35K

in my own experience I actually enjoy doing the super high visuals probably because I am OCD and want it looking spot on perfect. That is using my own time whilst I have nothing else to do etc (I wish)

To put my business head on this approach actually costs me money in that its wasted countless hours that I could have been doing a face to face with other customers who actually want to buy from us and not waste out time.

there is NO WAY I would be able to do a full fat render in ultra HD in front of a customer as the pc simply takes too long
to render it. A HD preview visual takes about 3 minutes and we have it looking nearly as good but the impact can be seen on the customers face when you are doing it.

You try designing a kitchen sitting in front of a customer and then clicking GO on the pc to render a Hi res visual.
you would need some great one liners to keep them amused for half and hour whilst it chugs away doing its thing.

Our main systems is a twin Xeon with a Ultra HD 50 inch monitor and 32GB of ram and all the rest of the bells and whistles that go with a DELL Workstation tower that cost a bloody fortune.

I am writing this now on a Saturday morning as my space cadet customer actually hasn't turned up . Guess what ? I did a full fat Hi Res presentation for this alleged customer with 10 separate visuals and a hi res panoramic pic. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr

Think that says it all really and your honour I rest my case.

The best way to get a job is to sell yourself and then your products/services and use the CAD system as another tool.
Pretty pictures don't sell kitchens . Sales orientated kitchen designers do....simples

A fantastic high end all singing and dancing visual doesn't ask for the business or shakes the customers hand 
nor does it take a depsosit. It merely helps the sales process to get to the final stage of the actual order being placed.

to recap

high end visuals help if your doing a kitchen or two a week and you have spare time twiddling your thumbs in between. Anymore than that and the danger is you get bogged down with doing pretty pictures and not selling your kitchens.

I cant wait for the day that I can talk to my pc , tell it what design I want and it goes yes sir all done for you. kaboom

I love this forum for its technical know how and the actual renders and I have learnt loads of new tips etc so well done for that.
That's my 10 pence worth and rant over !!

Ian

Bang on the money Ian.  I agree with you whole heatedly.

Ian Rochey, I know who you are mr emporium lol fully agree with above^^

There's a reason big sheds try and do design face to face, they would have invested researching what sales approach has highest conversion rate etc (I know talking about sheds is a sin but you can at least learn a few things from corporate big boys)

Charlie

You're right Charles.  They wouldn't do it if they didn't know it worked.  That's why I've always been on the hunt for the best 'out of the box' performance for everyone.  You shouldn't need super skills to get the renders 'tip top' (other than the work you churn out which is outstanding!) but we should all be able to get 80% there in a very straight forward manner.

The amount of sales I have made sitting designing with the customer is really small and the ones that come in cold with there own dimensions are for me a waste of time.

The amount of customers that say to me "we had another quote from another company but ordered with you because your visuals was far superior as we know you put more effort in".

I think if a customer has three quotes say and all around the same price what would be their choice based on the paperwork for those companies?.... they will nearly always choose the one with the more accurate renders...

There is no doubt that software and hardware will make the time to generate better presentations will enable companies impress more customers with the advances in GPU render engines for example.